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Welcome to Voices in Local Government. My name is Joe Superville. Today's topic is

Effective Communication with Staff, Council, and Residents. Our guests are Professor

Mark Ziegler, Senior Lecturer and Director of First Year Experience Programs at

Florida State University, and Desiree Casanova, Assistant to the County Administrator,

Sarasota, Florida. Thanks for joining.

Eway, Joe.

All right. Mark has taught students and professional audiences about communications for

decades. His session was a hit at the Florida City County Managers Association last

spring. Mark usually encourages more aggressive language and greetings from former

students, but I'm not totally comfortable saying that. Maybe we can bleep it later,

but that's an Inside secret at Florida State, Joe. - Yeah, we'll leave it at that

for now. And Desiree, you were actually at that session. So thanks for the idea and

thanks for making this episode happen. - No, thank you. I'm really excited. - And

Desiree's role inside the County Manager's Office will kind of help us connect Mark's

expertise back to specific local government setting. So for the audience, we're gonna

start with what versus how, then focus on communicating the right way to the right

audience, and then go through a few listener questions submitted by the audience and

ICMA staff at the end. So what versus how? You know we hear that better

communication it's kind of a cliche but unless there are specific actions or habits

to form it doesn't really mean much. So Mark can you start us off by explaining

two or three ways professionals can communicate better? I actually think in order to

do that, you got to start with three somewhat philosophical things in order to

explain why you would do it. Yeah, the skills come from it, but I think you get

the philosophy down, then a lot of times the skills take care of themselves. Okay.

Not always, because you sometimes still have to point it out for people to don't

make the connection. There are three things that guide how I communicate. And it has

since, well, I'll tell you the date. It was January 12, 1989. First time I read

this. When we communicate with anyone, that event has a past,

a present, and a future. So what I mean is, is that our conversation right now

does not exist in isolation. All the messages that you've received, Joe, and you

Desiree, in your life impact how you receive what I'm saying right now. And same

with me, everything that I've heard, said, experience that I've had impacts how I

send and receive messages. And then the other, the first time I read that, I

thought, wow, that helps explain a lot of things. That's why some student, some

person I might talk to, if it's a student, might be untrusting. Next student, I

say, how you doing? How's school going? And they're like, thank you, Mr. Ziggler.

It's going really well. How's week going, that they've been burned by someone or

more than someone along the way. And the other thing is, is that every interaction

we have that influences whoever's in that conversation, their communication from there

on out. So I remember the first time I heard that, I thought, "Gosh, I need to be

clear, fair, judicious, kind to every single person that I interact with because I

could be just nasty because I'm having a short, I'm short tempered or I'm having a

bad day and what is that impact? That impact is potential that a freshman student

withdraws from school or they, I put them in a bad mood and they get in an

argument and they break up with a boyfriend or their girlfriend or they call their

grandmother and yell at their grandmother because I was short with them. And it's

not that we have some, we walk around with this self, you know, the self

importance, look how important I am, but you just don't know how what we say and

what we do will impact the people that we interact with. So I'm always trying to

realize that I don't know their story. They don't know my story, and I need to

judiciously enter into those interactions. The second thing that covers pretty much

how I approach communication is this idea that participation in communication is

continuous and simultaneous. And what that means is we cannot not communicate.

So we might get really mad at someone and ghost them or not respond to their

email, but we are still communicating, always. ways. So we don't respond to a

Christmas card or if we they send a text and we're really busy in a meeting and

we don't respond. Sometimes they'll take their own message from that. And so I think

recognizing that fact particularly with social media because we might think we're

asleep at night and someone is looking at Instagram, they're looking at whatever we

might have put on X, maybe an old Facebook post and we're communicating even when

we're not there and not engaging. Social media has changed that whole idea of you

cannot not communicate. The final thing is realizing the roles that people are

playing when they are in a conversation. And I think about this all the time.

I have this student in class, young man, he's freshman, good kid, good Good young

man. I'm gonna call him a kid and I was at the gym the other day And I had on

my t -shirt and my camo hat And I'm working out and he was at the machine next to

me and I just kind of popped him I'm like tie what up and I just slapped him on

the shoulder and he looked at me and His first thought was who's the old guy

popping me on the shoulder and then he looked at me like Professor Ziegler and he

started he started to stand up straight and like going to student mode and I said,

"Hey, I'm just gym guy right now." So, you know, you're trying to figure out the

role that someone is playing. Even when a student comes in, I know they're a

student, but are they playing the role of questionnaire? Are they coming in to

complain? Are they coming in for assistance? Are they, you know, trying to figure

out what that as in knowing the role that I'm supposed to play, but then also

still playing the role of I'm Mark. And so when you have a bunch of hats,

particularly in local government and citizens, 'cause you may have a citizen that

comes to you as a citizen, a homeowner, and they may be, I mean,

someone really well -known nationally, internationally, or a leader in their church,

or, you know, so you don't really know. And so figuring out, sometimes you ask,

you know, what is the purpose of your question? You know, I'm aware of your career,

what can I do for you today? Or, you know, knowing everything that you can and

kind of negotiating those roles. And those roles are negotiated really intrinsically,

implicitly, you don't really say, hey, I'm gonna be a professor today, you be the

student. You just kind of you feel it out and really good communicators know how to

feel that out Yeah, and so because of that

General communication the why or the how you know whichever one we're at right now

I'm always trying to get the person to tell me about themselves, you know, hi I

mean the first thing I wanted to ask you Joe is I know you had you in class

because of your email But Where do you live? You know, what do you do? How did

you get to this? And I wanted to do the same thing with Desiree. My first thing

was, I know people in Sarasota. So I first asked if she knew Tom Knight, who's a

good friend of mine. We grew up and he's a county commission candidate and was a

former sheriff. And then I said, you know, I have a friend. I haven't seen her in

42 years. Her name was Carolyn Brown. I knew she worked in Longboat Key. I knew

Longboat Key is in Sarasota. And she's like, yes, she just retired. I said, I heard

that, I reached out to her. So to find what we have in common, I mean, that's

just the most important thing. That's one of the things that I think social media

does a good job of. Is it helps us sometimes do the groundwork that we used to

have to do. And it sounds like social media creeping, but you know, where are they

from? To who do we know in common? Can I throw that name out? Because a lot of

times if we can make the personal connection, it can diffuse the anger immediately.

So that's one thing. And then what's your story? Tell me about you. Why are you

here? How long have you lived in town? What is your work? Do you have family in

town? Just trying to figure out all the things that they may have gone through.

And the other thing, which is I don't know how to teach it, is paying attention to

the Mm -hmm probably 80 % I mean the range is 67 to 93 % of what it communicated

It's not what they say, but how they say it and so you can pick up on someone

who's emotional You can pick up on someone who's angry. They may be grinding their

jaw. They may be agitated I always find a way and and and try to say it,

you know You're really upset today, and I'm here to try to help you deal with that

or I can tell that you're really angry and there may be good reason, but I need

to better understand that. So, I mean, that's empathy. Trying to put yourself in the

position of the person who's communicating and looking at the situation through their

eyes. And it's really lacking in society now. It's probably worse than it's ever

been. I don't want to get into why, but we're really disconnected.

I think it's post -COVID and I think it's the political divide and I think that all

the information technology has people thinking that things are moving too fast. We

don't have the control that we used to have. I think in many ways we've lost our

sense of community in some areas. We don't work for the greater good. I mean

they're just a myriad of things that we're dealing with and I really don't of how

people deal with it in a leadership, particularly public leadership,

public service sector. It's difficult. The mayor of Tallahassee is a good friend of

mine, and the lead county administrator of Leon County is a really good friend of

mine. I've had all three of his students in class, and we talk all the time about

how his job has increasingly gotten

and harder. And almost to where he says, you know, I'm just here to serve the

public. I'm here for you and they're cynical about that. Yes, you are. Even trying

to make the connection. People will will wave someone off. And so it's very

difficult. And I don't know that I have the answers. Well, we have a specific

question later about some of the politics stuff. But you said it too, that past

present future, if people residents have been, in their mind, burned by government on

any level. In the past it makes it harder, even if that local government or that

city county manager is not the one who did it. Right. Or even if they come in

with that idea, they might not have been burned by government, but they read a

bunch of stuff online, or they distrust government from the outset, or they heard of

something that happen to a neighbor. So they come in with that. You know, there's,

it's really, I always like to leave my garbage at the front door when I go into a

conversation and not just make assumptions when we jump in. We're in such a fast

-paced thing that let's get in, get it over, get done, that we don't take the time

to get to know our neighbor across the street or across the table or, you know,

sitting at a panel and I got the microphone at an open air of grievances at the

End of the County Commission meeting. We come in with swords of blazing and I don't

know and we don't even welcome the positive things like the way we set it up. Come

tell us your problems as opposed to let's have a night where people come in and

say good things about our community. the only thing that gets the clicks, the only

thing that raises the ire is to take people off. And so that's what we lead with.

- Desiree Mark mentioned kind of wearing multiple hats and understanding your role

within a given conversation. As your job there, assistant to the county manager,

you see it all, you're on the inside and you're communicating across, maybe down the

chain, up the chain, even with counsel. So how do you, how do you figure that out

for yourself? Mark kind of, I think I agreed it was kind of intuitive. There's not

like a set of written rules, but how do you, how do you navigate that? Yeah,

there's definitely not a set of rules. And Mark gave some really great points that

I want to touch on. And the first is that he mentioned, making sure that we as

humans are listening to other people's stories. It's a human to a human, right?

There's, There's not really a hierarchy in that sense. And as a local government

person and public servant, you have to serve the people with that open heart.

And you have to really just understand somebody's coming to us for something. They're

trying to vent about something. They're trying to have us listen about something. Or

they're just trying to get something resolved, right? And have us be a problem

solver. And in order to do that, we have to listen and we have to listen

effectively to them. And no matter what chain that is, that can be me to another

colleague, up or down vertical, horizontal, and then us to residents, us to council,

us to commission members, because at the end of the day, somebody is usually trying

to just make something better, make their community better, get something done that

is going to better their lives or the community's lives. So I think it's really

important to just start with that and just make sure that as two humans we're

listening to each other and we're trying to understand one another. Most arguments

happen in communication when people don't listen to understand, they listen to

respond. And when we can actually come to an understanding and say, what is going

on? How can we help you? And going back to Mark, who are you? Where do you live?

What's important to you? And why into you. And why is this Okay, now what are we

goi when we go in with that m times residents who are a level of anger,

of resete with government can kind even if it's one level um Oh,

wow, you know, they 'r I'm angry, but they're no They're trying to resolve to to

help me. And it's kind of like they they go high you go low right in terms of

calmness. So that's kind of my my response for that part.

I also wanted to touch if it's okay to that we're advocates we're advocates for our

community and the thing is most of the time and in terms of residents so to say

for this example they might think that we're just here to collect our funds and to

charge them all these taxes and to do all these things but we have to be advocates

for them. We have to show them that we are residents also sometimes of the same

community or of other communities and the struggles and the differences and the ideas

and everything that they're going through we also go through them right. We're

residents too whether it be of the community that we're we're serving or of a

different community that we live And it goes back to that human aspect of, we

understand where you're coming from. We understand if your water bill's too high, if

there's a pothole, if the light's not working, that affects us too, right? 'Cause we

drive on the road, we need clean water and we need, you know, green spaces as well

and things like that of that sort. But I just wanted to mention that as well

because I feel that that was important for the topic too. - Yes, and you said it,

Mark, how can someone be listener. I think, I think most of us have kind of heard

or understand active listening and kind of confirming what you heard to let them

either say yes or no, that's not what I meant. Here's what I meant. So you could

do that without interrupting, but I don't want to say tricks, but how can someone

just listen better? I'll go back to January 1983, Dr. George Hood at Stetson

University. I'm sitting in this class a second week of January. And He said we

talked about active listening. We talked about paraphrasing. We talked about all those

things But he said how do we when we're under the gun and we're sitting there and

it's a high -pressure situation Are there some things that we can just tuck in our

mind and it will help us and I remember him writing it on the board s Oler solar

but with a knee and It's five things that you do Nonverbally that communicate to

the other person that you're there and you are taking in what their message is and

it absolutely works. And I have to use it sometimes if the atmosphere gets ramped

up a little bit. So the S as in Sam means square off. So I can be turning to

someone, someone can be to my left and they'll say, "Can I talk with you, Professor

Siegler?" Absolutely. And I can turn my head that the best thing to do is turn and

shoulder to shoulder. That tells them that I'm not busy and I've got time for them.

If I just turn my head, you know what they'll say, I know you're busy, but could

I have a moment of your time? But if they say, Professor Ziegler, and I turn, they

say, I have a question, because I've let them know that they're important right

then. Square off. Next one is open up. A lot of times what we do is we'll cross

our arms. I'm crossing my arms right now. Sort of it sets up of posture. I'm

putting on my armor, you know, or even we'll go like this, or sometimes with the

legs, we'll cross a leg, and that can even indicate the same thing. So open up.

That's what the O is. The L is this, and this one always works. When the person

starts talking, let them begin talking, and then the L means, just lean in a little

bit. So act really interesting. You can kind of fold your hands and lean in a

little bit when they start talking. And they're like, wow, I'm being heard. All

right. And the other thing you're saying is I really care about what you're saying.

So just to lean in a little bit. The next one's a square off open and lean in

eye contact. You got to really look and sometimes in political settings.

When the political milieu is there and it often is the people you're talking to are

always looking for someone more important to talk to. So I'm saying this to the

citizens who may be listening to this and to the administrators or government

officials who may be listening to this. If that that resident when they're talking

to you at that particular point is the most important person in that particular

moment and if you see the mayor come in or you see the big benefactor of the

library walk in and you divert your eyes from that person they all of a sudden

feel small again and unheard. So even if you have a friend say I need to speak to

you Mr. Administrator, you can go you can just hold your hand up put your finger

and point to the resident say talk into Gladys right now and then go right back to

Gladys then she feels empowered and you've sent the message so that square off open

in lean in eye contact and then here's the hard one relax because sometimes when we

go into these conversations, we go in already like it's gonna be, I'm gonna be, I'm

taking, I'm gonna get attacked. So to take a deep breath and to not be so rigid

or to, you know, clench your jaw or to, you know, all those things that we do.

Now you can laugh, but I've had students use that in big interviews when they're

trying to get a job, and the interview is going very poorly, and that that word

will pop into their head. They'll square off, open up, lean in, eye contact, and

relax. And I've had students come back to me and say, Mr. Jiggler was in this

interview, and it was failing. I couldn't even think, and I did that, and the

interview turned. It just turned, because for some reason, that sent a signal to the

person who was interviewing me that I was settling in. And they've asked me before.

20 minutes in, everything turned. What did you do? And he'll use, he said, in the

G, he, they'll say, S -O -L -E -R, freshman speech. The other thing I've had is

people that may be going on a date. Okay? And the date's going very poorly. This

is someone they're interested in. And they can't think of anything. Square off, open

up, lean in, eye contact, and relax. And it works. And this applies to digital

meetings too, which is what we're doing right now, but maybe people think they can

kind of get away with this stuff, but I don't know, even even when the phone is

off screen, people know when your eyes are doing something else. Do you know what

your voice changes if you engage in this? And what was interesting just watching the

two of you right now is when I said those things, you started engaging in those

behaviors. So as soon as I said, square off, both of you moved your chairs. - Yeah.

- As soon as I said, open up, you both nodded and kinda, and when I said, lean

in, you both got closer to the screen. And then the eye contact, which is really

hard, 'cause I'm looking at you, but I'm really not. So when you're in digital

settings, you have to look at the camera, and that's how it's eye contact. That

part's tricky.

But it just makes such a big difference. And if 80 % of what we're communicating is

the non -verbal, then I want all the non -verbal stuff to line up. Because the worst

thing we can do is square off, open up, lean in, eye contact, and relax. And

inside, we're contorted, closed, not looking at you and distressed.

Because if that's what we're feeling inside that our words will conflict with what

we're doing non -verbally, and there's nothing that is worse than a mixed message. If

you send the mixed message, the person walks away and say, "God, just like any

politician I've ever dealt with." Well, just party line. It's got to be congruent.

I mean, it comes from practice. I think administrators who have been in these jobs

for years and years that they're really good at. I mean, I've watched Vince long

and he's just he's magnificent and our mayor you know they're just really really

good at it and you know we've had a lot of controversy within Tallahassee and at

the conference I got to speak with some of our folks and thanked them I said I

just want to thank y 'all because y 'all been you know you've really kind of risen

above the politics but everything you're dealing with are political squabbles And how

do you do it? I remember asking one of our main folks in Tallahassee, I remember

he said very clearly, "Well, I do it 'cause I love Tallahassee." And I'm just so

honored. Even I'm on the fire line, I'm just so honored 'cause I love our town.

And I remember walking away and reading stuff about this person. I'm like,

use the name. Reading about this person. And I thought that they were a lightning

rod for conflict. And from the way he said that. I thought, no, they're not the

problem. It's very clear that they're not the problem.

I don't know. And earlier you said silence,

whether it's ghosting, not replying to a text digitally or even in person, that will

convey some communication either way. But if and when is silence an effective tool

that is fair to use? If you're angry, you don't want to respond in anger.

Alright, so don't and that's one thing that email really does. Yeah, especially on

an email, write it but don't send it, right? Yeah. And then think of it the next

day. Yeah, that and I mean let's let's think about it. Before we had all these

technological communicative devices, you'd have two neighbors and they would be talking

about something and maybe complaining, and that was it. It just went into the ether

and they knew it was going on, but now both of them go and they send off a nasty

email to a representative or a commissioner or a head of the HOA,

you know, the Homeowners Association, and so that ranker or that discord just gets

put into the system. I think that's one of the reasons why we're so stressed out,

the stuff that used to just happen, maybe in private conversations, it's now on the,

it's on the networks. We could do a zing in the newspaper and people write just

terrible things there and then people thumb up, thumb down, you know, you click,

click, click, click and it just, it just goes on and on and I, I just think it's

such a, such a root of our discord in our discourse is all the grievances.

And if you say something really kind and uplifting, people don't trust it any.

Like what are you up to? I'll tell you the other thing about communication. I was

going to say this earlier. After I'd have a conversation who someone comes into the

my office or whatever, I am holding up. Y 'all can't see this. I've got a bunch of

stamps and I've got a bunch of postcards. It's a box of cards box of stamps. I

follow up on every conversation with a postcard. I've already written them for today

from conversations over the weekend and it's just to follow up. Thank you for coming

in. I want to let you know that I called the supervisor and shared some of the

ideas that you shared with me. I hope to have a meeting with him on Wednesday and

I'll be getting back with you and keep up with that because you know what they do

is they get that card and you know what now they like you Now they like you like

Desiree is that you've responded and you have followed up and then on Wednesday You

call them back and you say I had the meeting now. This is harder because it really

requires more work You've got to actually follow through on what you said that

you're gonna do. Yeah So that and anyway, that's where I that's where I was right

then and because they just people need to be seen and they need to feel that

they're being heard and a card indicates that in so many tangential ways as opposed

to nodding and smiling and then we walk away and it's like it's over. No

communication event is over so keep it going keep it open and let the citizens know

that you actually are really there not just saying it. Yeah so - Yeah, so, Deseret,

maybe not actual stamps and postcards, 'cause that might be a tall order, but how

can the local government reply, not only to complaints, but inquiries,

or whatever it might be, and I know each department might have some version of

customer service, which is a tough job, those people do a great job, but how can

the local government do that effectively without the just relying on the generic

automated reply that literally says do not respond or this this email box is

unattended so how how does Sarasota handle that? Yeah so I really like Mark's

comment of being seen and being heard that's every single resident we want them to

feel that from the start to the finish for whatever type of topic that they want

to talk to our county staff about so I think one of the first things that we had

mentioned silence so an automated response is that's what they're getting they're

getting something that's automated it's generic it's not going to have their name on

it and it's just going to be here's a response to your question or concern and

nobody else is going to respond back to it and do not reply back because nobody

will and so it's hard with those right because people don't feel seen and they

don't feel heard and they just feel like well I just got the same message that

other hundreds of people got what we try to do here at Sarasota County is email

people individually, email residents. So one time we had a tree ordinance where one

Facebook group unfortunately had some misinformation on something that was occurring at

one of our commission meetings and our county administrator Jonathan Lewis had asked

me to specifically email back each and every resident. And that was probably over

400 different residents. So I emailed them that day all until the night and I wrote

my email stating their name, explaining what information was misunderstood, what was

going to be discussed at the meeting, that it was about about some grand tree oaks,

and kind of where that misunderstanding happened, and that we are in favor and that

we are sustainable and we are conserving areas and land. And so many people

responded back to me and said, "Thank you so much for just taking the time to

email me individually." I could have easily sent an automated response to everybody

saying this is the misinformation please don't respond back this is actually what

we're doing and this is what the commission feels. But no I took the time based

off of our leadership to do that and I really did feel that people really you know

responded well to that. There was also some other instances when I was helping with

the emergency rental assistance program a few years ago where we were giving money

as a government to different residents who weren't able to pay their rent and their

utilities, just based off of COVID and some other just times of life where it was

just really hard for people and it still is. And calling them made such a

difference. They're like, really, you're calling me? And I'm like, yeah, this is my

personal number. It's my work phone. Will you call me whenever you have a question?

I'll call you back. And they were just so happy for that. They, again, they felt

seen and they felt heard and they said, "Wow, like, you're just taking the time out

of your day." And I'm like, "Because you're important, because each and every one of

you are important. Of the 400 plus thousand residents that we have, each and every

one of you are special and are important, and we're going to make sure that you

feel that." And when you take that time to write to them specifically, to email

them promptly, just like Mark said, and follow through with what you say, they

respond way differently to that. They can differently to that. They at something,

they can d and we can agree to disag as staff and as a resident you're taking the

time, t that part, right? They ca the topic, but they can' you took the time to

emil and you took the time to I think that that's the o is when you say that you

'r if you say you're going

call them back on a specific day. It better be on your calendar. It better be on

your, in your brain, wherever it is that you store your information to remind you

of things, but that's what matters to residents because when you say you're going to

do something you have to, it's not only a form of integrity for the organization,

but it's a form of integrity for yourself. And if you can't live up to that

expectation, then you're not doing your best. And then that's not what we do at

Sarasota County. We always do our best and we always make sure that our residents

know that we are giving them our full attention.

- Mark, as a leader, is it best to keep a consistent communication style,

especially when you're kind of talking to a group and then maybe a smaller group

and then individuals? Or do you tailor your communication frequency style method to

different individuals based on what works for them? and if so, how does a leader,

whether they're leading the whole local government or maybe just a team of five

people, how do they even figure out what's best or what each individual person needs

to hear?

That's a hard question. But here's how I would approach it. And again,

I'm working from my perspective and then I'll try to dive into if I was in a

particular situation. When I'm a lecturing 200 students or even if I'm giving a talk

with 500 people in the crowd, I try to be very authentic, genuine who I am.

Then when they meet with me afterwards or come up and ask me questions, my goal is

always that they don't perceive me any differently. So they don't think I'm up there

just playing a role. And then if they come into my office and we meet, that they

still think I'm the same person, even though I may be a little relaxed. That being

said, you have a history with different people, and so you will soon learn what

will work and what won't work. I have thousands of examples that I use in class

about that, but this one, just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I

gave a student an A minus on a speech one time, and she was

unhappy. And she walked into my office and she slammed that down on my desk and

said, "I gave an A speech and this is unacceptable." And she was very authoritarian

and she was pointed and she was coming at me. And finally I said,

"Why don't you sit down? Let's start over. Sit down. I want to tell me your name."

You know? And then I said, "Well, tell me your background." You know before we

discuss this I want to know you because you're in a big class So she was the

daughter of two military colonels mom and dad and Everything was declared.

You're up at 07 30 you oatmeal's at 07 4 5 and it was very root nice They told

her what to do and she did it and so what happened was was it Before I got that

information, I was saying, "Well, let's figure this out. Let me show you what I was

showing you." And she saw that as a weakness. When I finally got the story,

I said, "I appreciate you coming in. The grade is what it is,

and it stands. It is an A minus." And you know what she said? "Thank you very

much for your time, Mr. Z." Another student would come in with the same thing, and

they would have thought he is so rude. But she thought I was being rude when I

was skirting around and not being forthright and trying to get what her ideas were.

She saw that as weak and rude. And when I said the great is what it is, it will

stand. She respected that. The directness. Yeah. I was laughing earlier too, because

if if Colonel Superville is listening, I grew up that way. But it wasn't so strict

necessarily. But I I developed this, I don't wanna say obsession, but efficient and

give me the same way, give me the info, let's move on. I don't necessarily want a

lot of that fluff and I've learned that I react poorly when there is too much

fluff, but that's part of the question. Is that on me or is that on the person

doing it? How do we work that out?

- Both parties in a communication event have responsibility for the event. And

sometimes we go into a public speaking situation where there are 75 citizens and the

commission and the head county administrator speaking and we think the head county

administrator is in charge. Everyone in that room is in charge of the success of

that meeting. All right, so if I go into a class or if I sit in the back and

I've got out my phone and I'm looking at my friend and I'm rolling my eyes

everything that they say that I'm undermining the potential success of the

conversation. Just in my nonverbals I'm putting out there discord unrest etc as

opposed to sitting there nodding giving the person who's speaking my respect and

support and the same is true of the county commissioners up there if they're looking

at their fellow county commissioners out of the corner of their eye you know and

like Oh my God, here he goes. Or they're looking out at a citizen they talked with

and they're looking at him, you know, with a knowing. Yeah, here he goes again.

- Yeah, the same old guy who's been there every meeting to complain about the same

thing, yep. - Right. And so I think everyone at the things got to go in there with

a sense of we are here to work on this problem, not we are here to point out

more problems. Because that's another thing that we deal with in in our public

conversations now and particularly when it comes to county government is you have a

lot of folks out there they just want the problems. A lot of times they're not

interested in a solution they just love the ranker and so they just like to stir

the pot and um you have some people that get mad when the solutions come up

because they're just trying to go to because that's what motivates them. You know

where I learned that, and I don't mean to be disparaging, but my dad was a Baptist

minister. Joe, you probably remember this. And he used to say that to me all the

time, that there are people that are drawn to public settings, whether that's

religious or governmental, they're drawn to that because the negativity is what fuels

their, fuels what they do, and they love to stir the pot. Probably half of dad's

ministry was trying to get people out who were just there to cause problems and not

be a part of the Community now you can't throw people out, but you got to

recognize that some people are just that way and You and you you reach the point

where you've got to draw the line and say I've done every and to say to them I

have had so many conversations with you I've offered many things that I think might

help, no matter what is offered, does it seem to help. And I just think that you

need to find someone else to talk to. We've not gotten anything done, and I'm not

doing a good job with my family because I'm worried about what you're going to say

next. And I've done all I can do, and I'm done with these conversations. Desiree,

how do you adjust your communication in the professional setting, Whether it's your

boss if it's an equal or as you said earlier, maybe a diagonal different department

Especially in your role because you you often maybe have the weight of the county

administrator behind you because you're kind of Pushing things forward on their

behalf, but you're not You don't necessarily have the individual authority behind it.

So how do you? Customize what you're saying how you're saying it depending on who

is going to Yeah, I think the biggest thing first off is to treat every single

person no matter their position with respect So that's what I like to start off

initially with that and then you do have a great point You know, I'm the assistant

to the county administrator, but I am not the county administrator nor the deputy or

one of the the regular assistance I had that little to in my name and it does

make a difference because although I have the backing and the projects that are

asked of me from that leadership team, it's not me, right? And I don't have the

authority to always make certain decisions or actions to be put in place. So I

think always, again, going with respect and then just being clear, you know, I was

asked to do this project on behalf of X person, whoever that may be. I'm looking

to get it accomplished by this deadline. Can you please, yeah, can you please let

me know if that's something that can be accomplished and I look forward to hearing

back from you and always just being kind, you know what I mean, not every single

person, no matter if it's diagonally, horizontally, vertically, or, you know, might

agree with you, but just to know that you are doing your best and that sometimes

things are asked to get done and maybe they weren't my idea and maybe they are

just needed to get done from a higher level, but they still need that respect

behind it. And maybe we don't have all the information or the background or things

that they would like, but it still, again, needs to get completed. And so just

having that professionalism, I think, is a big key role on that, no matter what it

is and no matter who it's for. So I think that's one of the biggest things. And

then obviously never utilizing power, you know what I mean? Because just because I

work in administration and I work for the county administrator doesn't mean that

anything that I might be asking for is more important or less important. You know

what I mean? So just making sure that every task is given with the same equal

opportunity as they say or equalness, equity on that just so that every single

department because we are really big doesn't feel that one is being valued more than

the other. And then I did want to touch on what Mark was saying about Just

speaking to different individuals, and it goes back to your question, Joe, each

person isn't the same. And if we talk to each person the same exact way, sort of

say like a robot or something, it wouldn't be beneficial and it wouldn't be

productive. And each way that somebody understands information and receives information,

and even the tone that you give it to one person versus another, really does make

a difference in how they perceive, understand, and respond to what you're saying. And

that goes both in staff, like me with colleagues, me in the county administration

setting with other departments and then also with residents. At Sarasota County,

we do something that's really great. So I wanted to share it. It's called the

people map and it's a personality test, kind of similar to the Myers -Briggs thing.

And so we do this where we have all new employees and current employees take this

test to see if they're one of the four core personality types. So it's going to be

leader, people, free spirit, and /or task. And normally you have one minor one and

then one major and then one minor. But sometimes you might be equal. And that's the

thing too, is that we go into this trying to understand how does this person

operate? Are they brought up by people in the military? Are they not brought up by

people in the military? Do they prefer direct answer? Do they prefer fluff? Do they

prefer 10 minutes of conversation about how your day is and how everything is going

unrelated to work and then to ask for the task? Or do they first want the task

and then to ask how your day is? And that's really has helped us in our

organization a lot. It helps people understand a little bit. And we tend to use it

as a joke. You know, so sometimes if I do ask for something because I'm a leader

task with one point away from people. I'll be like, I'm so sorry. That's the task

coming out of me, you know, but, but please, whenever you can get to it, I really

appreciate it because I am results driven and I do need something to get done

timely. And that's just how I work, but it's not that you're diffusing it. Like

Mark said earlier, you're diffusing and taking their guard down, helping them take

their guard down. Exactly. And it's all again about understanding, understanding that

although I am a person and I like to to receive and get information very directly

that doesn't mean that the receiver is the same type of person may they might be a

free spirit and want to get to it when they can get to it or like to be asked

about it in a different route and so that's the part of understanding what other

people are conversing with them genuinely talking to them to then be able to get

whatever the outcome is that we both need.

Myers -Briggs 40 years. I know exactly what you're talking about and there are people

that make decisions with their heads And the next person comes in and they make all

their decisions with their heart and you know how you can tell They'll tell you

they'll say here's what I think And or they'll say here's how I feel about that.

That's how you know That's how you know So there's all these little clues that you

can pick up on the other thing I was thinking about a second ago was we're talking

about all of this follow -up communication, etc. And what can happen in an

organization is if Desiree buys into that and she's doing it all the time, then her

workload will triple, quadruple, because people will go to her.

Alright, and so then she'll feel overtaxed or the other people will feel like

they're not being effective. It's really important that leadership if they start

pulling out all these ideas about follow -up and notes and Individual emails that

everyone does it Because if it just becomes one person then what you end up with

is the old adage. No good deed goes unpunished Because in Desiree now every time

there's an email thing that goes out They'll say Desiree remember that time you set

those 400 emails out. We need you to do that again. We'll see you next week. Yep.

And then there you go. But everyone's got to be committed to that. Yeah. Or

Desiree's got to have the ability to say, "Guys, we have one of those blow -ups and

there are five of us. If each of us do 80, we can be done in the next couple of

hours." Yep. And then get everyone to do it. And they know that it's important

because the county administrator said it, "We're going to serve our citizens best

this way." And they're like, "I'm in." That wraps up part one with Mark and

Desiree. Part two is audience questions on effective communication.

 

 

Voices in local government is back with part two, audience questions on effective

communication with Mark Ziegler and Desiree Casanova.

How do you balance between concise efficiency that may leave information out compared

to giving more context and details but risk becoming the too long didn't read fully

listen to email or meeting monologue or in my case, rambling podcast questions. So

Mark, get us started with that basically saying how much information is the right

amount, especially if I'm talking to a manager, city county managers, who's really

busy. Somewhere in the middle. I am Aristotle's golden mean.

I mean, I it's so interesting. We're either so far to the left or so far to the

right on everything. Go down the middle and so what you'll know how some people

might need more details and you might say hey I'm gonna hit the high points for

you right now. I'm open to longer conversations later But here's where I know right

now if that person said give me the details now Then I know that I can go with

it or if they say that will be perfect I can get the specs later So you take the

cues from them and you know the people to whom you're to whom you're speaking or

I'll even ask, do you want the short story, the long story? Because if I can't

ascertain what they're looking for, they'll say, I want the long story. I'm like,

you got a half an hour. Yeah, come on in. Let's discuss it. If they say I want

the short story, I'll say, essentially, here's what I'm dealing with. A, B, C, D,

when you want details, let me know. I got time. Yeah, I have a tendency to go too

long. So I've, I've tried to start doing that where I give the one paragraph intro.

And And if you want to keep going, here's it below, get to it later, get to it

whenever. Going back, even when I sent you the invite for this podcast, I was like,

"I don't know how much information to share or not. I don't want him to stop

reading and delete, but I don't want him to be confused what I'm asking." So, as

an example, I hope I split the difference. - I laughed, I laughed. And then I told

Ernie Sims that a student dropped his name, an old student dropped his name today

in an email. Ernie's one of our coaches now. Yeah, I would say good old Ernie.

There was a story. He made a huge defensive play to win a prime time game on ESPN

and was interviewed on field by Aaron Andrews and not the smoothest of interview.

But you know, who am I to judge? We're all 19 at the time and you kind of

coached them up in class the next day in front of 300 people. And sure enough,

whatever it was a month, six weeks later, he was in the same position and was

noticeably Now, let me tell you. - And good for him. You know, top 10 NFL draft

pick later and successful guys. So congrats to him. - And you know what's interesting

about that? I knew I could do that with Ernie. - Yeah. - Because if that had been

someone that was really hesitant and self -conscious and really knew that would be

humiliating, but Ernie laughed. - No, yeah, he was in it. We weren't laughing at

him. We were laughing with him when he got it. - Yeah, and I asked him beforehand.

I said, "Ernie, can I talk about your interview and make everyone better. He's like

open book. Interesting. I think I figured you did and I remembered vividly it was

one of those things where we almost couldn't believe like this professor just calling

out the big big superstar in front of everyone but it's an impression. You got to

be careful with that because I did it to Dalvin Cook one time and he handled it

really well but they were people in the class that thought I was mean to Dalvin

Cook and they went on to social media and said, "Our professor was so disrespectful

to Dalvin Cook." And I wanted to say, "Dalvin knew I was going to do it." So the

next class period I had to say, "Dalvin, tell him about the other day." He goes,

"Folks, it's all good." I went upset. He went upset. We have a history, you know?

So, yeah. - And again, you're, forget the class. You're helping them with what they

needed to - Right, it wasn't about the-- - Very conservative careers in the future.

They need to understand how to talk to the media, talk to fans, the whole thing.

- Correct, correct. - All right, next question. What is the best way to respond when

someone answers one of your questions or requests in an email or text but ignores

others? Does the answer change if it's a boss versus a customer or a resident

appear compared to a report or a boss? Desiree, why don't you go first on this

one, especially given the nature of your job there? Yeah, no, that's a great

question for sure. Always going back again to respect and professionalism. And

oftentimes, especially when we get those long emails, there could be so many

questions in there that somebody just genuinely forgot to respond to it or was

answering the others in depth that they didn't get to one of the questions that was

asked. What I like to do is just always say thank you so much, you know, we're

always thanking everybody for responding, for promptly responding, for providing any

information. If possible, could you please let me know the response to this extra

question or I see that this number wasn't addressed yet? Did you have an answer on

that one yet? You know, just, hey, just tapping them on their shoulders, so to say

virtually in this case, in an email, just to remind them that a question was missed

and that I look forward to their response. But there's no need to be rude or to

be, you know angry at it because it happens all the time. I know I personally have

forgotten to answer a part of a question that just had so many and so just kind

of letting them know and then most of the time I want to say like 98 % of the

time they respond oh my goodness I'm so sorry I thought I responded to that portion

um actually I'm still looking on it or looking into it or um I do have an answer

for you and then they'll say it you know but just being clear you know hey we

missed this thing um you know what was the response response for it? Yeah, I'll add

to that one. That can be an indicator on what is important to that person,

especially if they're the boss. So listen to what they said, take care of your

individual, your follow up. Then when you let them know your portion is complete on

that part, that's a good chance to then ask on the other. So I agree on that one.

Mark, why don't you take this one? Is there a good way to offer a reset if you

have a professional relationship that seems like every conversation is tense or

awkward? Yeah, I asked for a reset. Just straight up ask. I'll say it,

can we start over? They're both both sides are thinking it. And one way to do it

is to get away. Say, listen, last week was really rough. Let's go to Starbucks or

wherever. Let's go get a coffee. We've had a great working relationship and I want

to fix it. Or I even go in and say, "We got off on the wrong foot. We're not

seeing eye to eye. I'm not comfortable with this. Kim, what can I do? Sometimes I

will go into a meeting and I'll sit by someone who I had an argument with at the

last meeting to see how they're doing." And if, you know, that's an implicit asking

for a reset, but sometimes I'll say, "I don't like what happened the other day.

I've been able to sleep. And can we fix it? Where can we fix this? - And also

maybe, is it fair that the other person isn't necessarily stressed out or even

realizes that it's a problem? Maybe it's just one -sided, so. - Some people have

really good sense of, you know, they're very into,

well, they actually have great emotional intelligence and they know how they have

self -awareness, they know how it's impacting them, but it's very regular that

sometimes you interact with someone and they might not even know that that was

contentious. You felt it inside and they might think that they were just, both of

you were communicating very clearly. And I have gone up to someone and said, "I

really hated that conversation the other day. I hope that we can clear the air."

And they'll say, Is it that bad? - Yeah. - And so I think to bring it up,

then it's a perception checker. And they'll say, well, it wasn't really that bad to

me. And I'm like, well, whoo, I feel good relief. If I'm ever, you know, if you

ever feel that way after you and I've talked, then you bring it up to me like I

just did with you. You know, sometimes we don't have conversations about the

conversation. - Yeah. - And we just let it go. And then we go back and we go over

in our mind, trying to figure out what happened. And I just bring it up. I say

there's an elephant in the room. Let's discuss. - And I just want to touch on that

because we were talking about silence earlier. And that's one of the factors that I

personally think that silence is a killer. When you don't talk about things and you

don't try to acknowledge them if they were good or if they weren't. Because if you

don't let it out and just try to explain it genuinely, then we don't know because

now we're in silence and it could be two people angry at each other, one person

not angry and the other person is angry or vice versa, but we didn't communicate,

so we wouldn't know. - Yeah, right. All right, this one is kind of what we touched

on at the very beginning and we're not gonna solve this today, but the question

from an audience member says, public trust in institutions and governments feels like

it's trending downward faster than ever. After encountering thousands of skeptical

students over the years and finding ways to authentically connect with them by the

end of the semester. What strategies help you overcome your audience's existing

resistance or misconceptions? And I'll preempt a little bit. You did mention how to,

or just be your genuine self. That's kind of step one. But anything to add on kind

of winning over that skeptical audience, whether it's a student or a resident or

whatever the audience is.

Consistency, stories, and be human. I did a whole thing at this talk,

and I didn't even know I was gonna go to this when we were in Orlando and I was

speaking at the conference. But I felt like there were a handful of people when I

was talking about empathy and transparency, that I could, let's see them looking at

me like you don't know what I'm dealing with. And so I went to, I had four or

five different stories written down that I wanted to share that were explaining why

I was seeing it that way. My dad would take my sister and I to the nursing home

and the reason I was doing it was I was telling that I was talking about empathy

and the importance of seeing things through our friends, our fellow citizens, our

eyes and so what instead of just saying empathy is important I tried to tell some

stories about how my parents helped us develop our empathy the time when I was

throwing dirt at my friend when I was three um the time that we stopped on the

way to Perry for the holidays and got Christmas gifts for the prisoners working on

the side of the road on Christmas Eve and my dad explaining to us how we're really

excited about tomorrow, but these people are, they're having a terrible time right

now, and we just need to show them some community love. Getting off the bus one

day, and my friends were kind of kidding me, 'cause there were these people in our

front porch, they were homeless men that dad had found on 41, and he was washing

their feet, getting McDonald's hamburgers, and getting them new shoes, so that they

wouldn't be on the hot tar. If I was telling because what it what it will do is

it will allow the person who may be a little cynical to know where I'm coming from

because more often than not they saw things like that growing up and they've just

forgotten some of those things. It is also the case that sometimes people see you

as wow what a what a weakling. What do you mean stop it on the thing? Like, and

I've had people come up to me, is that for real? You know, and I'm like, it

absolutely is for real. Why would I make that up? But the personal stories about

why I see the world the way I see the world. And then I will say to an audience,

the reason I tell you these stories is, I wanna hear yours. I'm telling my story,

my story is not the important part. The important part is if I share mine, you'll

think of yours and maybe you'll come up to me and explain to me why you see

things the way that you see it. And it takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of,

I mean you just have to be committed to others to do that. - I did want to ask,

I had to get at least one FSU question in there. So Bobby Bowden, the Hall of

Fame FSU coach must have been doing something right all those years, communicating to

his players, to the media, behind the scenes to staff, other coaches, and even the

school admins. Maybe more, most importantly, the parents of the recruits just in

those living rooms. So Mark, what do you think made Coach Bowden a successful

communicator specifically in his leadership role? When you talk to him,

you felt like you had known him your entire life. So he was good at everything you

just explained, really, like making those personal connections and being vulnerable and

telling stories. - He just, you just, his eye contact, his presence,

the way if you were talking to him, there was, he was, Coach Bowden was not

looking for anyone more important. I have so many players who I hear from and talk

to just felt like he was a father figure, that he really cared about him, you

know? And I think it had to do a lot with his follow -through. I also think he

always surrounded himself with like -minded individuals that had the same kind of

follow -through. So for instance, Ms. Hall, his administrative assistant for his entire

career, often followed up on the kinds of things. And Coach Bowden would tell him,

"Hey, Sue, I met with this blah, blah, blah. Can you do blah, blah, blah?" And she

would follow through on the thing. So his follow -through was really great. He didn't

forget conversations. He followed through with letters and cards and you know you

just felt seen and heard and you felt like he was taking care of yeah it was he

was masterful at that. Yeah and it sounds like obviously Mark you are the same way

in your position in Desiree you're doing it inside local government and helping the

county administrator and other executives do it as well so Professor Ziegler Desiree

thanks for your time today as we as individuals and local governments strive to

communicate more effectively. Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Thank you. Appreciate it.

 

 

Guest Information

Mark Zeigler, Senior Lecturer and Director of First-Year Experience Programs, Florida State University

Desiree Casanova, Assistant to the County Administrator, Sarasota Florida
 

Takeaways

• Effective communication requires understanding the past, present, and future of interactions.
• Empathy is crucial in communication, especially in local government settings.
• Nonverbal communication can account for a significant portion of the message conveyed.
• Follow-up communication is essential to show that you value the conversation.
• Personalized responses can significantly improve public trust in government.
• Active listening involves not just hearing but understanding the speaker's message.
• Tailoring communication styles to the audience can enhance understanding and cooperation.
• Silence can be detrimental; addressing issues directly is important.
• Building trust takes time and requires consistent, genuine interactions.
• Stories can be powerful tools to connect with skeptical audiences.
   

Chapters

Introduction to Effective Communication

Philosophical Foundations of Communication

Understanding Roles in Communication

Empathy and Active Listening

Nonverbal Communication Techniques

The Power of Follow-Up Communication

Personalized Responses in Local Government

Tailoring Communication Styles

Balancing Conciseness and Detail

Addressing Missed Questions

Resetting Professional Relationships

Building Trust in Institutions

Lessons from Coach Bobby Bowden

Resources from ICMA Learning Lab

Self-Paced Online Course: Communicating with Elected Officials, Staff, and the Media

Free On-demand Webinar: Improving Trust and Transparency with Better Public Communications