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Joe:

On this episode of Voices in Local Government, we cover brownfields, what they are, how to get rid of them at no cost, the positive economic and social impact gained from what can be built in its place, and a preview of the Brownfields Conference, August 8 to 11 in Detroit. This episode tries a new format called, What Would You Say You Do Here? Where the audience gets to know ICMA staff and learns from their expertise and resources to support their local government's next project. another report.

Welcome to a special episode of Voices in Local Government ahead of 2023 National Brownfields Conference August 8-11 in Detroit. Registration is open at brownfields2023.org. Two experts who will be in Detroit and are joining the show today are ICMA Senior Program Managers Clark Henry and Chris Harrell. They're probably going to make me cut the actual audio clip from the movie, so I'll just ask you directly. What would you say you do here?

Clark Henry:

That's a very twisted question, Joe.

Chris Harrell:

What do we do, Clark? What do we do?

Clark Henry:

We perform land use planning and local government policy jiu-jitsu to try to turn brownfields, land that can be contaminated, sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, into working assets where people are working, playing, living, recreating, and it's generating tax revenue and jobs and community amenities.

Chris Harrell:

That's right. What we were talking about last week is brownfields. It's complicated. A lot of times properties in the redevelopment is frustrated or complicated. It's often in the state statutes itself that a redevelopment is complicated by it's either perceived or actual contamination. So here we are to try to fix that complication for communities around the country, Region four.

Joe:

I'll add for you because I think you're too modest to say, you're also ultimately here to help the local government leaders and administrators make this happen and make that whole process easy because it's really, you just said it's hard, it's complicated. They don't necessarily have anyone on staff dedicated to it or trained for it. So that is where Clark, Chris and others in the process come in to, to ultimately improve neighborhoods too, just quality of living, tax revenue, everything that goes into it. So. It could be a big deal to change or transform these brownfields into productive land use. So I think we kind of mentioned already, but potentially no cost. The question I ask on almost every episode is how is this paid? Because whatever the good idea or the project is, the budget comes in and dollars matter. So if it's really no cost and Jiu Jitsu or whatever else you want to use to explain it, how does that work?

Clark Henry:

It's complicated Joe, we're gonna keep saying that. So ultimately at the end when you take it, say whether it's an old gas station or an old industrial use and you turn that back into a productive use, you're generating that revenue that starts to take away that upfront expense. So at some point it doesn't cost anything. There are grant resources at the federal level and there are things that we can do at the local government level. without even without those resources or in tandem with those resources and in public-private partnerships to get these sites reused and sometimes that is a direct financial infusion to do say environmental site assessments and cleanup and Sometimes it's also just some technical assistance some handholding so people understand the process and they know how to get through it efficiently

 

Joe:

All right, and I should have mentioned earlier, today's episode, we're kind of going on the assumption that the audience knows at least the basics on Brownfields. If they don't, we'll have a link on the ICMA website and wherever you're listening to this podcast to get the foundations. And on that note, at the conference in Detroit, there's going to be Brownfields University, which is a foundational pre-conference training program ahead of the main session. So you can check that out on the conference website as well. So. We've kind of, you've set up what the Brownfield is. Do you have any kind of any other quick background or definitions or statistics you want to throw in before we keep going?

Chris Harrell:

Sure do. Clark and I, we've talked about this many a times over the years. I think there was a study in the 1990s and they came out with some number and it's been referenced ever since. Like, 450,000 brownfields around the United States. I don't know if that has any, it seems low to me and I'm just going to start there. And that's one of the things we want to say. We mentioned this in Louisville at the regional conference. reimagining government. And one of the things we were talking about there was there are probably hard pressed to find a community that doesn't have a brownfield. What do you think, Clark? Has anybody out there not got one?

Clark Henry:

We all have it.

Chris Harrell:

Hahaha

Clark Henry:

So there's some perception issues with Bramfield. Sometimes it's a perception that it's just a really large industrial site that used to be a large manufacturing thing. But they could be very small. They are rural. They're in the countryside. They're in remote locations. They're in downtowns. They're in suburbs.

Chris Harrell:

Everybody's seen an abandoned gas station, a dry cleaner. Those are some of the most typical small ones that inhabit each community around the country.

Joe:

Yeah, I'm no expert, but in my mind, I just imagine that chain link fence with grass and weeds and ivy growing all over it and just kind of an eyesore and nothing going on. And then no one wants to be near that. It's depreciating the value around it too.

Chris Harrell:

There you go.

Joe:

So, okay, how does the technical assistance work? I know there's a few different versions and we'll get into specifics on what you all provide, how and where you provide it, but tell us about the program. What are the goals? And again, how is it paid for even forget, forget the project of removing the Brownfield itself, like just these actual technical assistant programs. How, how was that paid for?

 

Clark Henry:

Well through the Environmental Protection Agency, we have a cooperative agreement to provide free technical assistance to anyone in EPA region 4. So if you're in Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, I think I got everybody.

Chris Harrell:

Good job.

Clark Henry:

So the Southeastern United States, we provide free technical assistance, Chris, myself, and another ICMA staff member, Madeline Desi, and contractors. Everywhere else in the country, there are other providers out there that easily found. You can find them in our assistance on icmatab.org. And there's a little resources there for peer engagement, for requesting our assistance, etc. And it's funded through the Environmental Protection Agency because they totally understand that just because you're a local government doesn't mean you have capacity to really understand this kind of very convoluted world to get from point A to point B. And so

Joe:

can I interrupt right there?

 

Clark Henry:

Yeah.

Joe:

EPA, sometimes when the feds get involved, that's the boogie man. Like no one wants to deal with that headache, no one wants to deal with that red tape or a hassle. But again, maybe that's where you two come in to reduce that burden. So why, explain to the audience how that's actually not a bad thing. Aside from the money, that the EPA's involvement is obviously a net positive and it's really not so much stress.

Chris Harrell:

Right. EPA is in this situation, they're there to help. Their funding they provide for us to provide the technical assistance and our contractors. It is there to help guide folks to OB1 you right through the process and to get through the applications for the grants or to deploy them once you receive one, when you're one part of the successful bunch. So I just wanted to make sure that folks know, don't be threatened by the EPA, especially in this context.

Clark Henry:

Yeah, this is not a regulatory program in any way. This is really just money and technical tools. I mean, it really is.

Joe:

Okay, so they're not coming in to assess what else might be wrong or start throwing fines and fees and all this.

Clark Henry:

Absolutely not. And they are actually, and they're not here to dictate how, what your local priorities are. The EPA does not want to prioritize what or list out what they think you as a local government or listeners, what your priorities are and what your policies are. They're here to help you maybe bridge gaps and what the best practices are, but they're not here to dictate anything.

Joe:

Okay, so I think these projects would be case by case and a lot of variables, but walk us through kind of the most typical process where someone listening right now says, I know I have plenty of these brown fields, I need help. I'm gonna contact ICMA or whatever, if they're not in that zone, whatever else might be able to help. But what's the first step? Is it the grant funding? Is it the assessment? What comes first and when do you two jump in to help?

Chris Harrell:

Sure. A lot of times I like to think of the first step is recognizing that you have a problem. Right? So the first thing you have to do is like, hey, that old abandoned gas station has been sitting there for 43 years and hasn't been doing anything for the last 30 of them. So recognizing that and you have an issue and then you can reach out and what do I do now? You know, and a lot of this with community leaders, these sites often become underutilized, vacant or abandoned. They also become drags on the tax coffers and furthermore They may be cycling downward and in other issues as well site upkeep and And ownership may be clouded. So that's one of the first things is working Who's who's the owner of record and oftentimes city leaders? Well, they can they have the tools available to determine this so they can start digging into that and then sharing that information then And then you can say, okay, now what do we do? What do you think, Clark? What's their next step? Once they realize they've got a problem, they know who allegedly is on the hook for it. Maybe they're dead, gone. A lot of times, gone.

Joe:

the previous owner doesn't want to deal with the fallout or the cleanup, right? Isn't that kind of why these linger?

Clark Henry:

Well, a lot of time, someone inherited a property that didn't cause the problem. And they're going to do whether they want to build it or sell it, and they realize that they own a problem. So the next step for the local government is to call Clark and Chris. So we can help you identify what their potential is. We can help identify potential reuses. We can help build. concessions in the community about what a reuse vision could be. We can help you get prepared to get the grant money to provide environmental assessment and clean up later. Um, and how it fits into your plans. How does it fit into your strategic plan and help, you know, we're working with. You know, the, where I don't want to name names, but we just had a conversation last week with the mayor of a town is working, just got a grant. And so we're helping her figure out a small town in Georgia, very small town in Georgia, how to figure out how to. get everything put in place, and then how to execute that scope of work to assess and find reuse for the site, and then who's going to build it. So there are many steps, and I think it's important to take a long view. This isn't a quick project. These are part of local governance and making sure that your land assets are an asset and not a drag on what you're trying to accomplish as a place.

Chris Harrell:

That's right. And Brownfield sites individually can often be catalysts for driving redevelopment vision and planning around them. And so

Clark Henry:

Mm-hmm.

Chris Harrell:

they don't always have to be that boogaboo, that problem in the middle. They can be a solution that helps drive redevelopment in the area itself. And area-wide strategies are something Clark and I worked on early on when the literature started pointing to, hey, if you solve for... two problems in one small area, guess what? You're gonna get exponential impact in a good way.

Joe:

Okay, you said long term, not to scare anyone off, like, hey, if we can't plan for, see the benefits quickly, like, it's just easier to kick that can down the road. But do you have, are there any numbers or stats on the average timeline from start to finish on a successful brownfield?

Clark Henry:

There's no that you can't so ballparks and averages because each site is so all over the place You know one gas station say that's 30,000 square feet might not cost anything the next the same size gas station right next door might cost Hundreds of thousands of dollars so like ballparking things is really impossible But it's I put it this way the opportunity cost of doing nothing is so much greater than the cost of taking action now. Like you don't want 10 years from now to look at that site and say, oh, there's still no one on that. The successes that

Chris Harrell:

right.

Clark Henry:

awards that we see out there and they're great projects. And now these are hallmarks of how communities can be revitalized. They took years to accomplish. And it took those local government and community leaders with that commitment and vision.

Chris Harrell:

And like Clark noted, sometimes there aren't really problems at all. They just, people just think there are problems. It's the perception more than the reality. And that's one of the key points. And it's in the definitions of brownfields and statutes throughout the country. It's the perceived concern and you don't know until you assess. And so that first step beyond recognizing you have a problem is doing the investigation. So a phase one environmental side assessment, just want to start there. It's a glorified environmental history report. And it has specific items that are prescripted. There's this prescription on what is included in that through ASTM guidelines. And so that really doesn't do any sampling. I just want to put it out there folks, a phase one doesn't sample anything. It just looks at the history of the site to identify recognized environmental concerns that may be present. And then based on those recognized environmental conditions, the recs, you look at, you investigate them with a phase two. And that's where you do the sampling, you do the soil and groundwater testing, and you look and see what's really going on. And at that point, that's where you can determine where's that question mark, where's that dollar bill? Is it going up? Is it going down? Is it zero, right? For a clean up. So that's where the real meat and the potatoes comes together. At the dinner table on the dollars,

Clark Henry:

Hehehe

Chris Harrell:

and after your phase two. And sometimes the result of the phase two is like, oh. We tried to do it economically where we didn't want to poke too many holes in your ground and waste a bunch of money. Well, we presence absence, well, we found, oh, there's presence. So then they have to go back and do a further side investigation to delineate how far and where things are going in the groundwater.

Joe:

Okay, so who's the typical person in a local government office that you two are working with? Because depending on the size and scope, the city, county manager, they're running the whole thing, so they can't necessarily get into the weeds with you all in this. So what's the, not necessarily the title, but who are you normally helping run this project?

Clark Henry:

It's kind of, it can be all over the place. It can be an assistant city manager. Some planners are very commonly deep in this world, planning departments, community development departments, engineering departments. Now, I'm also community-based partners, nonprofit organizations are eligible to receive the EPA grants and to do this work. Quasi-public agencies like redevelopment agencies, economic development agencies, Regional entities like councils of government are really important in this scenario, especially for smaller communities who don't have Capacity, you know where your city manager also cuts the front lawn. I know there are those of you out there You know, I have time for

 

 

Chris Harrell:

yeah. I've even seen worked with a community before where they had the they had a brownfield coordinator and he also wore the hat of the bicycle Courtney bike ped coordinator. So it runs the gamut.

Joe:

that could be a good thing too. That could be opportunity. So if there is, whether it's the manager themselves or department head listening to this right now, if they can identify someone on staff they think would be passionate and wanna take this project on for their own career development, the exact title or prior training doesn't necessarily matter. Just those organizational project management skills can get this done.

Clark Henry:

Absolutely.

 

Chris Harrell:

100%.

Clark Henry:

And recognizing too, I like to say that Bramfields is there. It's not about Bramfields has nothing to do with Bramfields. It sounds kind of stupid, but it's housing, it's economic development, it's jobs, it's environmental protection, it's economic, it's economic development 100%. It's where people are going to live, work and play. It's where your institutions are going. It's where your next park is.

Chris Harrell:

Do we want to give people a little background on the word brownfields? From Charlie? Uh, yeah, it, it originated from a friend of, of the community, of all communities, Charlie Bartsch and another author that wrote a paper in the nineties, early nineties, and it was essentially the opposite of greenfield development. It boils down to that. So just wanted to drop that little nugget.

Joe:

Yeah, all those factors Clark just went through, economics, etc. It seems like that is, I don't want to say selling point, but for the city county managers maybe needing to pitch this to the council members. A, if all those topics are winning topics politically, which I understand that's not what we do, but that might help sell the council. The community themselves want it or need it, which is the task of the managers. if that balances out and it's paid for through the EPA grants, that hopefully is a win-win-win. Now, it's still a hard, difficult, long process, but I have yet to hear a reason not to do this.

Chris Harrell:

Where else in public policy do you get to work for cleaning up the environment at the same time as promoting economic development? Like, it's a win-win all the way around.

Joe:

Yeah.

Clark Henry:

And put it this way too, in terms of broad community perspective, if it were a city manager, whoever it is. So revenue, you have to be able to pay for all your services when you're running a town, a city, a county, a region. And you can make the most out of the land assets that you have, because that's your property tax revenue, which most states, that's your source of revenue. You can make use of that land and maximize revenue there, you can keep expanding your boundaries through annexation, or you can raise your tax rate. Nobody wants higher taxes. Annexations have slowed dramatically in recent years because it's been a way to capture tax revenue and not necessarily grow responsibly. So listen, your option of using your brownfields and using your land wisely, And that goes way beyond brownfields. This is much more of a, like a more smart. This is an element of smart growth and, uh, in urban planning. If you're not doing this, you just accept that you're going to raise your taxes.

 

Chris Harrell:

Well put.

Joe:

Yeah, nothing to add there. I think everyone understands the implication. So let's hit a few details on the Brownfields Conference. Again, that's August 8 to 11 in Detroit. Registration is open at brownfields2023.org. What are you two most excited about for the conference? What's any particular sessions or topics, mobile workshops? What do you have your eye on?

Chris Harrell:

Well, besides the riverboats, that's going to be fun. They have a community session in the evening, a reception on the riverboats. That's going to be great. But I always like boats. But besides riding the boat, we're going to get a chance to meet with Region 4, the folks we work with in TAB. We'll get a chance to meet with folks there and discuss their issues in person, live on scene. The other thing is getting to see the community of Brownfield's folks that we know. There's a lot of friends out there. that work in this business, like I said before, it's good across the board, economic development and cleaning up the environment. So all the people that you know in your world that do any of those things, they all come here. And so it's a great chance to catch up with them and see their success.

Clark Henry:

Absolutely. I really like how the, we've been going to this conference for a very long time, long since we joined ICMA as program managers. But one thing that I've seen evolve is the one, the community of people who are coming to this conference, but two, it's also driven by the change in how the educational programs evolve. Very foundational to this is the science behind everything and technologies to do assessment cleanup and that stuff. But really, it's really... now evolved into how are you using this land? What are the strategies to bring additional resources? Who are the partnerships? And what partnerships should we be forming? How do we strategize to use what we have to reclaim these sites? And then there's a whole new population of people. There are people who have been coming forever and we see them there and it's wonderful, but we're making fast new friends and seeing people's eyes open up when they're there going, oh, this isn't what I thought it would be. This is really useful and really helpful. And they become brownfield nerds like we are and really joining a rapidly still rapidly growing community across the country and around the world of people who are focused on this topic because it's kind of it's a hub it's the crossroads of everything from very traditional economic development to environmental justice it's very important to point out that this is an environmental justice issue and that communities who are suffering the largest burden of these sites are low income communities of color. And so focusing on those assets is, it's a true triple bottom line endeavor. And to see where environmental justice leaders are meeting with economic development and federal officials, this is where stuff really happens. And this is where we actually find partnerships and paths forward.

 

Chris Harrell:

The sessions are super well curated. There were over 450, 480 application, folks wanting to submit in for sessions and speaking at the conference. And I think we only had slots, what, 150-ish, somewhere in there? Yeah, yeah. So well curated, a lot of work goes into, because all of them were great. I would say there's very few that weren't super proposals. So... That's one of the things that a conference you'll notice that the level of presentation and the skills and the background of those doing it It's really is really good

Joe:

is not, it's not just hypothetical. Maybe you could do this and it's not just the science of doing these testing.

Chris Harrell:

No, no,

Joe:

It's practical

Chris Harrell:

no.

Joe:

work for real people in local government that can then take what they learned, go back to where they work and start a project.

Clark Henry:

Absolutely, you see the theory turn into practice like the we're not just talking about ideas. We're using case third. You'll see case studies So many case studies like real-life examples of how this process has worked and the outcomes are compelling and people go home back to their Home jurisdictions with very actionable things that they can take on in the near term

Joe:

Right. And then to clarify again, like we mentioned ICMA's Southeast zone, but there are other Clarks and Chris's out there for the rest of the country doing similar projects who will be at this conference who are available to help even if you can't make conference. So it's not, it's not just restricted to the Southeast who happened to fall. That's just what ICMA, that's just the slice we got of the pie.

Clark Henry:

territory. There are other providers. There's the Center for Creative Land Reuse. There is the New Jersey Institute of Technology, University of Connecticut, University of West Virginia, and Kansas State University. We have a room at the conference for the whole show where we can meet with people and even start providing technical assistance there. So keep your eye out on the app, the conference app for a way to schedule time with us all.

Joe:

Okay, and we'll link all these things. Clark, you mentioned environmental justice. I believe there is a specific pre-conference gathering. It's at August 7th from five to seven at Huntington Place. So is that like a kind of social gathering or just an unofficial meeting? There's no cost to that either. I think it's just a sign up so they know the head count type thing. But

Clark Henry:

It is, yeah.

Joe:

what's the goal of the environmental justice caucus there?

Clark Henry:

Uh, the caucus is, uh, it's a longstanding tradition to have with the conference. And it's really kind of, it's a locally driven event with a national, that brings a national perspective as well. It is free to attend. You should sign up for it. You do not have to be registered for the conference to attend. And this is a chance for local environmental justice interests to have an audience with EPA as well as other federal and national environmental justice interests to have. I worked at a forum to share experiences and ideas and offer opportunities and to have an audience with key executive leadership from EPA.

Chris Harrell:

That's right. And this year they're actually going to be able to at the end of it probably present EPA will advise folks of the various different opportunities, funded opportunities that are coming in the EJ realm. So that's real exciting.

Clark Henry:

Yeah, it's important to note that the size of the federal financial resource coming out of the federal government right now is light years beyond what any of us had ever expected through ARPA and the Infrastructure Law and Inflation Reduction Act. These agencies, the EPA's, Branfield Program, and the Office of Environmental Justice has amazing, the size and scope of their resources is unprecedented and it's absolutely crazy to not start trying to get to bring that to your communities.

Joe:

Yeah, those funds have been a topic for well over a year now just on infrastructure and pretty much anything that touches local government. So that money has not dried up specifically as it relates to EPA and Brownfield's grants. It's still there to be taken advantage of, not taken advantage of, but for a good cause.

 

Clark Henry:

Yes, it's just, yeah, we've got more years of this and but then it'll be gone. This really is, I think, a once in a lifetime. So like, do it now.

 

Joe:

Don't wait. Listeners right now, city county managers say, hey, like, I just don't have time for this. We'll then delegate it. Kick this podcast, send these links to someone on your staff who can follow up.

Clark Henry:

Absolutely.

Joe:

So you can start working on these projects sooner than later.

Clark Henry:

and staff to the conference have them call us. Let's get rolling.

Joe:

brownfields2023.org for registration, hotel info, agenda, and speakers. The technical assistance workshops available in person and digital, I believe, with Clark and Chris in region four. What is the easiest way for someone interested to actually reach out and connect with you two directly?

Clark Henry:

ICMATAB.org.

Chris Harrell:

Yes, there is a button on the site to request assistance. Just hit that button.

Joe:

Okay, we'll link to it on this podcast page. I will wrap it up with a quote. We'll leave unattributed, but someone once told me this Brownfield project is like legal money laundering for cleaning up your own neighborhoods. So

Chris Harrell:

Haha!

Joe:

how could you not want to do that?

Clark Henry:

absolutely. Legal is the key thing. Yeah, so there are resources coming from outside that turn into your resources.

Joe:

All right, well, Clark, Chris, you're good with people. I think the Bobs from the movie would be happy with your work and everything you're doing to help local governments transform these brownfields. Thanks for being here today.

Clark Henry:

Thank you, John.

Chris Harrell:

Thanks, Joe.

Episode is sponsored by

Guest Information

Clark Henry, senior program manager, ICMA

Chris Harrell, senior program manager, ICMA

Episode Notes

On this episode of Voices in Local Government, ICMA experts on brownfields, Clark Henry and Chris Harrell, explain why brownfields are a problem and how to transform them into sustainable spaces with positive economic, social, and environmental impact. Often at no cost to the local government. Then they preview the Brownfields Conference, August 8-11 in Detroit.

Resources

Technical Assistance to Brownfields Communities: Free technical assistance and workshops (in-person or digital) via ICMA in region four, or find your representative organization on the resources page.

Brownfields Conference, August 8-11 in Detroit

Brownfields University, a foundational pre-conference training program, free with registration for Brownfields 2023 conference. 

ICMA Brownfields topic page, for the basics all the way through advanced studies and resources.

Free copy of the ResourceX Annual Impact Report