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Part One:
Welcome to voices in local government. My name is Joe Superville and today I am excited to talk to Warren Hutmacher longtime city manager and now president of Sumter local government consulting Warren's expertise and the specific topics we're gonna get into today are all things job and hiring the job search the interview Negotiations and this is gonna be from the candidate and the hiring managers perspective and also the recruiters perspective. So Warren is the perfect guest to kind of cover all angles here. We're going to start with a list of questions today, but hopefully this will be a recurring segment. So any listeners out there, if they want to send their questions in for Warren or any of our other experts, the email is podcast@icma.org. So Warren, thanks for joining. Thanks for listening to that whole spiel.
Can you give the audience a little bit of background, both on your city manager experience and what you're doing now? with some sort of consulting? Absolutely, Joe. And thank you so much for having me for my background standpoint as is always been in local government.
So I started off as a assistant to the city manager for a medium sized community in metro Atlanta and then spent 18 years after that as a city manager and communities ranging from 2000 up to 85 ,000 in population.
All in Georgia except one. community I worked with in Texas as well outside of Austin. And then November 2021, I started Sumter local government consulting.
And basically what we are is trying to use the experiences that I've had over 20 years in local government just to be a problem solver. So we handle a lot of HR type issues on executive recruitment interim services, but also sort of a jack of all. -trades as to whatever clients might need from a problem -solving standpoint. We connected on LinkedIn, and one thing that caught my eye was what you put on there was I thought a really good balance of the candidate side, the hiring manager side, and the recruiter side. You've done all three, and I think have a good unbiased, well -informed opinion on all of it. So that's why we're going to try and answer some questions that a lot of the audience has as both.
You know, they're whether they're the manager hiring staff or whether they're looking for their next manager role I have to interview with the council or HR types or all of the above I think we'll be able to cover a lot of that today and it's not just job search.
It's also kind of that You know management thing. I've got staff. I've got employees. There's gonna be a lot of topics where you can get to on that as well, which is Maybe the first one. Let's start there external equity versus internal equity equity paradox And I think we're kind of specifically referring to employee and employee pay So you take it away give us kind of the general overview What you've seen as kind of the sticking points or maybe what's not always going so well and in these local governments And maybe what the audience can kind of learn from or do do better in that area Yeah, so you know from my experience as city manager and also working with clients as we do recruitments you know the first thing that you kind of talk through is, is salary is to, you know, what are you, what are you expecting to be able to pay for this position? And then try to figure out whether that map where that matches within the marketplace in that particular area of the country.
And for that particular position or industry. And that's, that's your external equity. Internal equity is that once you've set that salary for that position, how does that compare against the other positions within your organization? And how does that impact morale, fairness, and your ability to retain folks in positions?
And so what we're seeing in the marketplace right now is a very difficult time for people hiring for positions that either have scarcity of folks that are in those roles or they're competing with the private sector.
And the three-- three that that jump out to me As I've talked with folks and some of the assignments we have right now are IT positions finance accounting positions and engineering and those three are very specific skills that are transferable between public and private sector and There's still I think some legacy thinking within the public sector where they want to pay the engineer 90 ,000.
There's a scarcity of folks that are PEs, professional engineers, licensed in civil engineering. And you're competing against these large civil engineering firms that do business almost solely with local governments as well.
And so you're competing for talent. So you've got some external equity issues there. Yeah. that make it very challenging, but when you just had this conversation with a city manager this week, and they were saying, "I can pay this person up to this amount, "but it's really gonna cause me a problem "because I've got a police chief "that's supervising 30 people, "and this is a standalone department "of one civil engineer.
"How do I justify to a police chief "that folks are putting their lives on the line "versus a police chief?" guy that we don't even really understand what he does as a civil engineer but you're gonna pay him more than your police chief and and that causes a problem and so that conundrum is really difficult for clients to sort of have the courage to be able to pay with the market demands and take take on the consequences of those actions and so I feel for them and we try to find a balance and try to find candidates that maybe money is not there They're number one factor But to be competitive in the marketplace and to be able to recruit quickly You really got to deal with that external equity question And some of that's just educating your staff and trying to explain to that fire chief or police chief Why you have to go $10 ,000 more than you're paying them and then in some cases Engineers going to want more money than the city manager is making and that causes even a bigger problem. So, you know, I solved it, but I think that that's what makes recruitment to take longer and we have more difficult time getting quality candidates to come in. - Yeah, well, you just said you haven't necessarily solved it, but what is the approach? It's one thing to try and explain the marketplace or the math, whether it's the fire chief or anyone on the executive team, but...
But, and that's what we're trying to get to today. It's not just a, it's not just like a logical answer necessarily, but there's a motion involved, especially as you said, if it's like, Hey, I'm, my team's on the fire department, our life's on the line. What would you recommend to those managers or what have you told them when they might say,
I did that, I tried to explain it. We showed them the numbers, we showed them, we can't feel this position unless it's at whatever it is 90 K, but it still doesn't work. Or it's still causing that riff. Is there?
Is there what's the next step or how do you kind of get the human side of it and not just the numbers? Well, I think the first thing and you mentioned it already is data. And so part of it is, you know, showing them from a market standpoint, this is what those positions are pulling in areas of the country or neighboring communities. And then second is, okay, let's assume that you're just not willing to pay it. your efforts at educating your staff or are not going to be effective. You got to look at what the opportunity cost is. And so from the standpoint of engineering, one, you're slowing down projects if you just do nothing and decide to keep the position vacant. So you're slowing down projects, you're making it more difficult for developers for your infrastructure to get moving.
And then the other option is, is that you go ahead and hire. hire and contract out the service. And that cost is going to be higher than it would be if you put the person in internally. And I think that's a viable solution for some folks.
And it's illogical in that you're going to spend more money, but it's easier for them politically to say, you know, we just went ahead and hired this firm that has all the expertise we need, we're going to pay a premium for that partially so that we don't have to disrupt our internal equity.
We just can't afford. And the same thing when you look at the IT side of it, a security expert is absolutely necessary these days with the cyber attacks and ransomware and those kind of factors.
But those folks, in some cases, can pull in three or $400 ,000 a year and completely blow up your pay scale and maybe you don't need them all the time. And so the solution is maybe you contract out for that service. service and bring it in somebody, you know, just on an as needed basis that absorb an hourly rate, but then they're not on your pay scale adopted by council and causing you problems.
So sometimes it's just you can't solve it. So you, you got to go another route, even though it's sometimes the dumb decision, but it's the right one for that community because they just can't, can't do it.
Can you try and balance it? Oh, I mean, originally. originally started out by asking external versus internal. So if the internal equity is maybe thrown off balance because of those high demand, it's not even necessarily higher scale, but the tech jobs and the engineering, as you said, that might throw off the internal scale, but can you go back to the other departments?
And it's not just fire, there's communication, people, there's-- - Of course. - There's public work going on. - Everybody goes on. on. Could you make the argument that, hey, let's look at the external equity. And maybe at standard, we're paying you 5 % more than the equivalent town in the same state or county. Is there a way to show that-- I know it seems unfair that this other department or these positions make X, Y, or Z. But for what you do, we're ahead of the curve on that. Does that-- Does that help or just has, 'cause that's also not easy to do, but if you can do it and you can work that into the budget, does that kind of help solve it? Does it do a good job? What does that fit in? - Yeah, I think in general, anytime that you've, if you're keeping your own folks fairly compensated in dealing with, sorry, external equity for them, there's really no reason for them from a monetary standpoint to leave the organization. organization and so I think you know the it gets blown up a little bit too much on the internal equity question and I think it's just you just got to have the guts in some ways just to say this isn't the best long -term interest of the community I'm gonna take whatever crap I get from the staff I've got the data to support it I know I'm making the right move I'm gonna do it anyway and as long as we're paying our folks fairly they really have have nothing to complain about that Has any real meaning to it and and I've had situations where you know We we go ahead and advertise an IT director position When I was city manager and I'd have you know for firemen and two policemen apply for the position because they're saying well I should that's to prove it kind of yeah That's for 40 ,000 more than I'm making So I'm just gonna apply for it and then you know that'll bring you argument forward and okay you know I mean that's certainly an option but I think you just can't always cower to folks and so sometimes doing the right thing is just the right thing and you know it's easier for me to say as a consultant to say you know just pay them what they what it's necessary to get the best person for the job but it's up to the manager to have the courage and the foresight to say I'm just going to do it and I can I can explain it and if people don't like it, tough. Okay so this isn't an either or question maybe it's more of a pie chart or a spectrum. Whether you're the manager or maybe you're the consultant telling the manager what is more important than external equity or internal equity or like how would you split that?
Yeah he gets a it really depends on each community. community and then also how far off are you in your equity to be able to hire for that position because if you're in a real small community it may be such a jump to the point where now your civil engineer is making more money than everybody and it just doesn't make sense and so you're really going to have to contract out for the service and so I think it really it's a it depends kind of question on what what the politics in that particular community are and sort of how much clout or security that the city manager has.
In other words, it's not necessarily the hill for everyone to die on, but there's some folks that have the juice internally to say, "I'm just going to do the right thing and I'll take whatever crap comes my way and I'm not worried about it." And then you got maybe another.
manager that's you know, right now He's got three that want to fire him and for that quite haven't made up their mind just yet And they're not taking any chances So they're just saying I'd rather have the position vacant then take a chance of having the you know All of my department heads running to counsel to complain.
Okay, that that leads me into the next and maybe last follow -up on this particular segment, but how does counsel fit in if they're approving the total budget or approving specific positions? and salary ranges for that specific position?
How do you communicate these concerns to council? Does that change their mind and then do you go back to that? To use the fire cheap again. Do you go back and say hey council approved it's this number not to shift?
Blame or like redirect the anger, but how how does the council fit into this dynamic? Yeah, so I think yeah you know, in a council manager, former government, the way that it works is that the council will adopt a position allocation chart, which has the number of positions that you're allowed to hire for and what those titles are. And then they set a compensation range for each position, and then they also set the overall budget. And so the control factors, are there for the council and so, you know, the best course of action for any manager is always proactive communication with the council so you don't do something, let it blow up and then explain it, but go in proactively and say, I'm foreshadowing a problem here because we're trying to hire an engineer, the salary that I'm going to have to pay.
And here's all the data that supports it is going to put us in some internal. equity issues. I'll be meeting with these key department heads that this person is about to be surpassed by with this new position and try to get them to understand where I'm coming from and that it's in the best interest of the city and just want you to be warned ahead of time.
And then you can kind of work off of that feedback. And if you get everyone saying, please don't do this, this is the worst thing ever, you might want to change court. but in most cases, again, when everybody has the same data, they usually make the same decisions. And so oftentimes the council will go, "Oh, we totally understand." And then when the fire chief goes of running to the city council, then they're already prepared to say, "Hey, City Manager's already briefed us on this. "Let us help explain what he's thinking "and kind of back you up on it." And so that makes it easier to make those decisions. And, you know, it's certainly never a good idea to just do this out on your own without, you know, being communicative both with city council and with your staff ahead of time, no surprises. - And do you think it's okay or would you even recommend the manager saying something to the effect of, hey, I understand this is frustrating and seems unfair, but this is just how it is. It's like, you don't have to. to dismiss their objections or their anger maybe even about the price difference, right? You don't have to try and convince them they shouldn't be angry, it's just that this still has to, it's going to happen, this is how it is. Yeah, I think it's part of being an empathetic manager to say, you know, even going to him and saying, you know, I hate this, but you know, here's what we're looking at and I think it's very difficult to be able to explain to folks why we're doing this, but I want to at least explain what we're thinking and understand that it may make you mad, and I can understand why you feel that way, because it's-- a woman's going to have a one -person department, you're managing 30 people and people's lives, and it just doesn't seem fair.
And so I feel you. But ultimately, I'm charged with-- both you know an ethical and legal responsibility to do what's in the long -term best interests of the city and that's what I think I'm doing and I can sleep at night knowing that and you know we can just agree to disagree and as long as you're listening to folks and being empathetic you you lessen your chances of a revolt but you know you can't control everything.
All right Warren thanks for your explanation on external equity versus internal equity. paradox.
Part Two:
- All right, we're back with Warren Hutmacher. Severance agreement negotiations. Sticky situation, when you're on the front end or maybe have that offer, you don't wanna push it too far,
but you also don't wanna leave yourself vulnerable. High level overview about this, and then maybe some, we'll get into some specific scenarios or follow -ups, but severance agreement negotiations, go ahead.
- Yeah, I think, from a city manager standpoint, it is the most important element of your contract is a severance agreement. There is nothing more important because just like with, you know, you purchase life insurance not hoping that you're gonna die, but that you purchase it because you know at some point it might go wrong and you wanna be prepared and take care of your family. Severance agreements are exactly that for city managers.
They cannot be overlooked. They are literally the most important part of your agreement because when something does go wrong, it's only what's written in that agreement that's going to carry the day.
And all the good intentions when you sign the contract go away. And I think the other factor that leads me to that conclusion of how important the severance agreements are is because city managers take on an enormous amount of risk more so than any other person within the organization.
organization because to be able to do the right thing requires courage and sometimes that means that you're gonna be making people mad and not doing the things that are immediately beneficial but are the right things to do and sometimes those decisions have consequences.
Regardless of whether you've done something wrong or not wrong, you could lose your job. And so when you have a house, a family, other opportunity costs, have taken that job, having the severance agreement in place is important to be able to protect your family. And I think that a lot of folks gloss over it, but I cannot stress enough how important it is. So when you're negotiating these severance agreements, there's sort of two elements to it. One is the length of time that you get paid past employment. There are 12 months, three months, six months, nine months. And the other is the length of time that you get paid.
And whether or not benefits are included within that as well is critical. What I advise is that you can get the longest period of time possible within your marketplace and that you also include the other benefits within that agreement because you're going to need those.
When you're unemployed, you're going to need health insurance. You're going to need to be able to have money coming in after severance. The challenge is when you're negotiating these type of agreements, one, what can the city stomach from the standpoint of having to pay you out for leaving the job? Again, not a resignation, but when you're terminated. And then secondly, the other really important factor is what is the difference between cause and no cause? And so in a severance agreement, cause is typically defined as you've done something that deserved to be terminated and that therefore you should not get any money from the city on the way out because you've done something really bad not just you were kind of bad at your job but you've done something wrong and therefore it would make it so uncomfortable for the city to pay you any money that they're not going to sergeant zero but who where's the burden of proof on that is that case by case depending on location or does that end up in the in the court How does that go?
Yeah, so it's basically, it comes down to how it's written. And so what you have to assume from the city manager side is that if you are terminated, the first question that the mayor and council are going to ask their attorney is, how do we get out of paying this guy anything? And so the better the language in your severance agreement, the more likely it is that that attorney says, you kind of have to pay him. We're not going to win on this one.
I've seen them in written 500 different ways. And so what I recommend to folks is keep it simple and basically say that the you get your money unless you are convicted of a felony.
Period. Wow, okay. Because then there's no gray area. Then there's no gray area because it says you've been negligent, you've been, you weren't financially responsible. responsible. All the soft words you can put in there just become subject to interpretation.
And then you've got a judge and a jury deciding what it meant. So anything that any other provision you have in there of negligence, breaking policies, what the heck does that mean?
It's an 800 page manual. And so if it says in there that lunches will never be more than an hour, and you take an hour and five minutes, you break the policy. policy, now you lost 12 months of pay because of that.
And so again, they're looking for a reason to not pay you, don't give them one, and don't agree to things that you're going to have to argue out later. In the last couple of negotiations,
I said, you know, this is my hill to die on, and I will give up other things in exchange for this type of severance agreement because I don't want to mess with having to. fight you on the back ends.
- Yeah, and obviously it's case by case people have their own walk away points depending on where they are at in their career. But if you could share, did you have minimums on duration and that clause you said about, this is getting paid out and less convicted of felony? Were those, it's either in there on walking and if so, or separately, what was the duration? Did you go for 12 months? months, six months?
What was your minimum duration? - And that will depend on regional. So like, for example, the state of Florida, I think has a, I don't wanna say a five month maximum on severance agreements.
And so state laws sometimes control that, especially when cities do crazy things and give people two year severance agreements or crazy packages. So it's gotta be reasonable, I think. But. but you get as much as you can. So in Georgia, six to nine months is about the maximum that you're gonna be able to negotiate. In California or Texas, you're probably talking a year. The more crazy the politics, the more you can ask for on the severance because there's a better chance you're gonna be-- - A riskier, yeah. - Riskier.
- I mean, the non -electeds wanna stay out of the politics, obviously, and that's the ICM. ICMA world But the council and the people who are terminating with or without cause The politics are unavoidable.
So that's smart. Yeah, and they'll get they'll get yelled at right after you no matter What's in the agreement, you know, they'll get you. Why did you pay that bum six months? He did a bad job, you know, the parks look terrible the police are unhappy Well, because the agreement said as long as he's not convicted of felony, you know then then we have to pay him so we did. And so I think it kind of works better for both parties because it's that simple.
Now they can say why the heck did you agree to that? Well, hopefully those are the previous elected officials that agreed to it, not the current one, so they can blame it on somebody else. But that is so critical.
Because the other thing is, is to David and Goliath situation. So I get, let's, in my situation, I get fired. The council says wow We think you did this this and that wrong and we're just not going to pay you and I'm going well the agreement says this I say, okay. Well Sue us and now we're looking at a city with an unlimited legal budget That could go for three or four years fighting you and not care It's just no big deal to them.
But for me, you know, if it's get a higher an attorney and now I got no pay I'm dipping into my seat to live and be able to fight the city, it's almost impossible. - Is it a case where the city, it almost is good PR because the residents are like, yeah, don't pay that guy 'cause they don't know the details. But if you can't really fight the PR battle because then you become that, you're risking future candidacy or other positions 'cause now your label is, well, that manager got terminated and now he's bad mouthing the town and the paper. And suing them and suing them even worse.
And so you don't want to be like yeah city councils don't like to hire people that sued their previous employer that's just fact. So I you know I think that's the other reason why you negotiate so hard while you have some leverage because at the back end of your employment you have no leverage it's only on the front end and so you know I've I've learned over time that you know if I can get that one right, I'm willing to give up on some other things. And I just tell them straight up as we're negotiating, you know, all these things are important to me, but at the end of the day, I have to walk away with this. Because if I don't, I'm not protecting my family and I can't do that and I won't take the job. - Right, and as our candidates out there, do they need to kind of be ready to have that conversation where it doesn't come across like they're expecting or maybe they think that termination is likely because that's not a good look either.
But just to give that reality of, hey, this is, I have to have protections in place for all the things you just said, because that's not an easy conversation when you're trying to get the offer. I think it's worth the fight because why if you take the job without protections, why the job isn't a good thing for you. So you'd better off not taking the job than taking one with a crappy severance agreement. And it is a hard conversation with some of the council members because you're basically telling them there is a possibility, you know, you're going into this saying, I don't think it's gonna work out in some ways. So I wanna make sure I have what I need going forward. And so one of the things, you know, putting in a plug for using outside consultants is hugely valuable when you're negotiating agreements with city managers because you are taking the emotion out of it and getting an expert to come in and tell them you are going to do a severance agreement with this guy because no one will take the job without it.
And so you can huff and puff, but at the end of the day, your best candidates are all going to require this doesn't make them bad people. Hopefully we'll never use this and they'll be here 20 years and everyone will be happy, but you got a plan for the worst.
And in fact, this does protect the city because you are gonna be able to walk away cleanly from this person, it may cost you some money, but you're gonna get a provision in there that they'll waive their right to sue you, they'll waive their right to bad mouth you, and we can all walk away without the distraction of a protracted problem going forward. - Yeah, and I think, ICMA audience of, city town managers understand That this is not a golden parachute When you're talking to the council again, do you also kind of convey that we're there? It's not like the CEO walking away from a big company with Stock options and multi -million dollar payouts.
This is a year salary at whatever probably Underpaid salary just to begin with let's be honest Dude does that land well do they kind of understand like this is a public servant at a at a whatever the number might be but it's not it's not the quote unquote golden parachute of like oh my god i can't believe this guy right and so there's been some examples lately in the news that i cringe at in some ways because there's two that i could think of where city managers got what i would consider a golden parachute on the back end of it and on one hand bravo for negotiating a good agreement for yourself but you But you really put the rest of us into peril, because it doesn't look good. There was one where the employee got to keep our buy a $60 ,000 truck for $10 ,000 on the way out that was in the agreement.
Another one got two years pay. Somebody else you know, ended up with like 600 grand on the back end of it. It's just not a good look on that get reasonable. stay out of the news and don't do silly stuff because in those situations one of them was was even worse because the perception of it was that it was it was right before the election and the person knew that if the if their folks lost the election they'd be out of a job so they renegotiated their contract with the existing council who gave him a hell of a deal knowing it was probably coming in yeah that's yeah no one I mean actually that one was after the elections They knew they were leaving and they they saddled the new council with a terrible deal The manager thought they got away with something, but I think in in effect.
It's just it's just bad. It's bad policy It's just it's not the right thing to do and it hurts the rest of us who want a reasonable agreement because now the state Legislature's gonna look at that and go what did you do you crazy city council?
We're gonna need to put in a a Florida law and limit these agreements to five months or we can put provisions in that say, you know, if you violate any policy or charter, those are the only things that can be put in.
Don't invite the state legislature into your business on these agreements and just be reasonable about how you negotiate fair to your family. But when you, when they start to get things that are crazy, you just ask them for trouble. - One more follow -up question on severance. Like early career, mid -career, late -career, is there a risk profile where you're willing to maybe take that three -month severance instead of 12 -month because if you push for the 12, they might just move on to that next candidate.
They might just say, "Well, no, thanks, we're not doing it." Is it kind of a path as you go, the more leverage, the more you build your career, the more leverage you have. the more you can push for that, either at your next job or even on contract renegotiation.
What is the advice you give to other managers out there? Or again, when you're the consultant, the counsel themselves on trying to find the right balance on kind of like a risk profile or what a fair point is to ask for.
- Yeah, and I think with any negotiation, you know, you've got leverage points. And if I were... going after my first job you know I would agree to almost anything because you need that opportunity because once you're in the club and you've got that first city manager job you you're now very marketable for the next one but the first one's the hardest one to get so I think you clearly give up some things to make sure you get that job and I wouldn't blow a job over over severance on that first position and so I think you take that higher risk profile. And then as you go through your career and you've got more to lose, you up the ante on what you need in your severance agreement to be willing to take the job. - Is there a key point, not necessarily in years or anything, but when in your career did you decide that the clause about this is only not getting paid if convicted of a felony is gonna be in there or on? walking, when was that a deal breaker for you? For me, thank God it wasn't because of a bad situation, but I think as I, one, got more experience and more clout, I knew I could ask for more in the agreements. But I also just realized over time that, again, that if you could kind of go behind the curtain, never been there, is that when they go to terminate you, the first question that comes to mind is, you know, if you're going to go behind the curtain, you're going to have to asking their city attorney is, how do we get away with not paying them? And so if you go into it with that thought, then you're going to write the agreement in a way that they see attorneys only answer is going to be, we're going to have to pay them. And so I just kind of figured it out. And then as I, you know, went through a couple terminations, I'm glad that I worked hard on that provision because it was very difficult for them to try to get out of paying it because it was just that simple. So when you put in things like, you know, violate a policy, they'll go back and find one that you violated because they don't put that in there because it's just an escape clause to not have to pay you or to fight later for it.
And as I said before, it's Dave and Goliath and you don't want to fight with a person with an unlimited legal budget. When you're consulting with the Goliath, with the council, council, do you recommend that they just go ahead and put that in there too?
Because it's a good faith, hey, there shouldn't be anything to argue about. It's clean cut, if they're that bad, obviously we're not paying a cent. But if it's politics, if it's a little personal disagreement, if it's just whatever gray area, it's not worth it to get the top talent in here, you should put this clause in without arguing. - Yeah, and I think that is very good advice that we will give to city councils on that.
You know, ultimately, we're hired by the council to negotiate for the council, but I still think it's a good provision for both parties. And frankly, it just becomes a leverage issue.
And if they want the candidate to walk, then they put a dumb severance package in there. And so it's a lot of education on the council side, and the beauty of hiring. the outside consultant for your recruitment is that I can be in the room with them at that point and say you know instead of them all sort of getting together and saying hey let's try and do three months and we shouldn't have to pay them anything to
leave you know I can help educate them a little bit and say hey you know here's how this works here's the candidates thinking you know maybe you go and say you know we'll lower the auto allowance or we'll pay them a little less and then give them a little more on the severance because I think that's going to be what's going to get the deal done.
And so it's really a lot of education of trying to educate the elected officials. And then frankly, what I've seen is the candidates, you know, in some cases don't see the value in it on the severance side as much as I think they should.
And so they they devalue it into their own mess to do that. It's a detriment. It's terrible, terrible. thing to do to yourself and your family But sometimes they they just have this rosy view of oh, these guys are great. I love it here. I'm never gonna be fired Yeah, well again, this has been a theme with a lot of the questions. We've covered with you so far There's a human emotional element to it and when you're Being courted or being not just interviewed, but if you're kind of getting that offer and hey, we need you you're gonna come in here and do great It's hard to project things not going great in the future But as we've learned, whether it's politics or otherwise, things can and often do happen.
- The other kind of joke in this field, which is true is that you start your job on the front page of the paper with a headline of, you know, city hires, great city manager. You always end up on the back pages and either they help watch it or the obituaries on the end of it.
Nobody ends up on the front page leaving. And so you got to assume the worst. worst when you negotiate your agreements and hope you never use the clause. And there's times where I've never used it. And there's times where I'm glad just glad as anything that I had a good one in there.
Yeah, no, you're right. And whether it's LinkedIn or elsewhere, I actually love seeing those kind of retirement announcements where so and so did 30, 35, 40 years of the town and job well done, everyone loves them. And again, hopefully that's best case and people can achieve that. But that's not what negotiations are for in the front and it's to protect yourself. Yeah, and I think the other factor too which is unique to local government is that if you come in in 2024, you're hired by a city council that you love and trust. In 2031, you may have a completely new group in there that has no loyalty to you and the only thing protecting you is going to be what's in that agreement.
And so you got to remember that this is not even if they go incredibly well, this is not the group that you come in with, it's probably not the group you're going out with. - Right. Well,
Severance agreements and just negotiations in general, Warren Hutmacher, thanks for your advice.
Guest Information
Warren Hutmacher, president, Sumter Consulting | LinkedIn
Send a question about careers, job search, interviews, or negotiations from the candidate or hiring manager perspective for Warren to answer on a future episode to podcast@icma.org.
Takeaways
External equity and internal equity are important considerations in employee pay. It is crucial to set salaries that are competitive in the marketplace while also maintaining internal fairness and morale.
How to communicate about the sensitive and often personal topic of pay with staff and council.
Severance agreements are of utmost importance for city managers, providing protection and security in case of termination.
Negotiating severance agreements should consider the duration of payment and the inclusion of benefits.
Differentiating between cause and no cause in severance agreements is crucial to avoid ambiguity and potential legal disputes.
The inclusion of a clause related to the conviction of a felony in severance agreements provides clarity and protection for both parties.
The risk profile of severance agreements may vary depending on the stage of a career, with more leverage and negotiation power as experience and reputation increase.
Educating city councils on the importance of severance agreements can help ensure fair and reasonable negotiations.
Preparing for the worst and prioritizing personal and family protection in severance agreements is essential for city managers.
Resources
email podcast@icma.org to send Warren a question about hiring, recruiting, or anything career-related.
Sumter Local Government Consulting
